MCN Interview: Brad Dourif

January 15, 2003

An Interview with Brad Dourif, the duplicitous Grima Wormtongue in The Lord of The Rings II, The Two Towers.

At the end of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, the fellowship was divided into three groups after Boromir's death and Gandolf's plunge into the pit of Khazad-dum.

In The Lord of the Rings:, The Two Towers, the now split fellowship continues their journey to destroy the One Ring. In the central movie of the trilogy emerges a new cast and a very different film.

The Two Towers presents a set of imposing new characters including Gollum (Andy Serkis), Eowyn (Miranda Otto), Eomer (Karl Urban), King Theodon (Bernard Hill), The Human Faramir (Advid Wenham), and the higly anticipated arrival of the sinister Grima Wormtongue.

Grima Wormtongue plays an advisor to King Theodon who has fallen prey to the spell of the evil wizard Saruman (played by Christopher Lee). His mendacious attempts to corrupt the King make Grima Wormtongue a central villain in the film. His duplicitous loyalties help ravage the falling kingdom and its master. Grima is played by Brad Dourif, who is no stranger to standout performances depitcting evil and corruption.

Besides voicing the part of Chucky, Dourif has appeared in over fifty films including cult classics Body Parts, Alien Resurrection, Soulkeeper, Dune, The Excorcist III, Blue Velvet, One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest (which garnered him an Academy Award nomination) and Common Bonds. He also was a common guest on such shows as The X-Files, Millenium and Tales From the Crypt.

Dourif talks to us about Grima Wormtongue and what we can expect to see in the second part of the trilogy.

What goes into your decision-making process when considering a role?

I'm a whore. If they have a check and camera and a script and stuff for me to say, I am mostly there, unless I just can't take it. No, really, I do like to work. It just depends on whether there is a whole lot of stuff for me to choose from, because if there is I am choosy. If there's not a lot of work, then I try to find some redeeming value in the parts being offered. If it is awful, then, of course, I can't do it. But I have to say, I am pretty lucky in that there are usually things coming in. That said, sometimes it is slow.

What are the most important elements of a character for you?

Everything is really different. I am good when there is something central about the character. There is always a human theme I attach myself to. I am really looking for something that is moving or enlightening or something with depth as an actor. I look for these kinds of roles. .

How did you manage to be offered and accept the role of Grima Wormtongue?

Well, it is an interesting story. I didn't get it at first. They cast somebody else for the part. I had already auditioned three times. Then, they went with somebody else and decided not to use me. But something went wrong with the other actor, for undisclosed reasons, and he backed out. Apparently, I was their second choice. There was already strong enough interest in me playing the part. I guess I was already in line. So they called me back and I accepted.

What was your initial reaction when you were contacted for the role?

I was delighted when they came back to me. I really wanted the part.

What did being a part of The Lord of the Rings trilogy mean to you, before you were in the movie?

I hadn't read the books, when I was offerend the roll. I wasn't one of the "hippie cool kids." So I read the books. But after they offered me the role of Grima Wormtongue, I read the books and I really enjoyed them. I think I got even more excited after reading.

Did you have any creative input in the role of Grima Wormtongue? Did you sit with the writers before the film?

Oh yes. I spent much time with them. I came on and I sat with Fran Walsh (writer/producer) and Philippa Boyens (writer) and we went over the character for hours when I went in. We nailed it down and we stuck to it. They rewrote and I talked to Peter Jackson about the role much later. Grima is a trusted advisor, to King Theoden of Rohan who has been turned spy by evil Saruman. . We decided it was important that we make him human with some human qualities.

This is the difference between a book and movie in description. We needed to show some redeeming qualities. He is the one human who really is evil. So we made a decision to make him a guy who was ugly and the odd one out when he was young. The guy who was afraid of everyone, and just didn't fit in. As the odd one out, and always on the defense, he got good at sussing out where trouble was going to come. His history contributes to his ability to second-guess others. He was an astute observer of others. This made him good at advising a king. At the same time, he was a part of the family, but never a part of the family. That was why Saruman could turn him, and he did.

How long did it take you to do both films?

Well, they did all three in 18 months. It just made more sense to create the set once as it was so elaborate. They had all three filming simultaneously, while I was there. They shot out there, I worked six weeks in spring, and then one week in summer and then in January, three weeks. It was a perfect shooting schedule for me as it never took me away from home for too long.

What did it mean to you to be a part of the Lord of the Rings as literary works?

There is a lot I love about the books. I think they are great.

In your opinion, how difficult was it adapting these characters from the books into a live action characters in a movie?

They gave the movie a challenge, that is for sure. I might say that was not the case with my character, Grima, as he is is only hinted at, not nailed down specifically in the book. That made it more collaborative for me and for the writers.

I think this project was challenging because we are not dealing with an author like Dickens. Tolkien is very strong in description and detail. The world is incredibly rich. But his characters are action characters without enormous depth. The dialogue is very poetic and not very character specific. There are exceptions, of course, like Gollum.

But the issues we faced having characters that are described in a book, were that readers can fill it in with their imagination. As you see the people walking around in the book, the grey becomes white and the questions begin to fill in. But in the film, you have to be able to see that a character is fundamentally different when they change. For example, Gandalf becomes a holy man, and transcendant in some way. Strider has to be very human and real. His problems can not be just about being a king. It is not easy to show someone embracing the idea of being a king. It needs to be real. We had to re-write Grima Wormtongue to show who he really was. You have to see him be these things to understand him.

What was your favorite scene as Wormtongue?

My favorite scene was with Miranda Otto. Basically, the scene depicts the concept that he can never have what he wants, and, therefore, he can never be fulfilled as a human being. It is about weakness and it definitely shows Grima's weakness.

Was it difficult to work with all of that makeup and such elaborate costumes?

Sure, it was difficult. You've got people pestering you, surrounding you, the fake eye, yeah it all gets tiresome after a while. But it was such an imperative part of the role, the visual aspect that is.

There are substantial differences in the two sequels to the Fellowship of the Ring. What differences do you see in the sequels, and what can we expect to see?

They are separate and different movies even though they are three acts. They each need to be regarded differently as beginning, middle and end. And Peter Jackson is certainly attempting to do that. Without seeing part III, it seems like he is achieving his goal. I suppose it gets more difficult as time goes on.

The people in the audience need to be brought up to date. What I can tell you is to look for the canvas to get bigger and bigger, more complex and simpler at the same time. There are many more characters in the second story.

The Two Towers is probably the most complex of the trilogy. And it is more dangerous, sort of like a series of struggles. You can be sure to feel the conflict. The story will get much simpler by the third one. The third will be more emotional. And, you will see the cost in the third act.

What types of things did you have to do to make your character frightening?

Make up was a great help. The thing is despite his fear and weakness he is very powerful and keen. He needed to be very English. I think Grima has the feel of an English person.

To do this, I worked extensively with a vocal coach. I spoke with the accent all the time. I was Grima all day, every day, to get used to the rhythm. The English thing was very important to me and being this person helped me to get a lot more natural with it. I wanted to make him dangerous in his mind. I wanted his power of observation and his subtlety and the way he deals with people to be clear.

You have played many frightening roles in your career, what makes this so appealing to you, and what do you attribute your overwhelming success at portraying these characters to?

I think I have an obsessive quality to my personality. What makes things scary is you can't argue with obsession. If you have an obsessive personality, there is not a whole lot I can do about it. If I let it get the best of me, than it REALLY can be scary. We all have an edge. We all are floating our psyche on top with a great ocean underneath. It is important to understand this so you can deal with it.

Do these roles help you act out your obsessive personality?

Sure, there is all that drive. Once you express it and you see it, it helps. It is an outlet, so to speak. When people see a really scary character that I play, they tend to say 'Brad's not really weird, he is just a normal guy playing a really weird guy.' My girlfriend says to me 'you're a sweet guy, but you are a bit of an odd duck.'

Does it help you in your personal life?

Totally! The universe is dynamic. When we are creative, we are the most alive and in touch with it. There are exceptions, once I played a sleazy liar. It was hard because, like I said earlier, I become my roles twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. And my girlfriend, who was not used to me at the time, had some difficulty adapting to this persona. As long as she was with me, she was fine. But when we were away, talking on the phone, she was like 'what is this?'. It was harder for her to deal with my personality.

Is the Two Towers close to the book like Fellowship?

Oh sure. It is very much so.

As childhood fantasy/cult fiction goes, Tolkien is a stand alone. How does this concept and the anticipation for his films weigh into your performance, if at all?

It cannot weigh in. You really have to concentrate on what you are doing. Maybe it was always there, in the back of everyone's mind. But you can't let it take away from your focus. I am they type of person that once I make a decision, I must execute. Maybe I am a perfectionist in this way. That is what is so much fun about doing the movie. It is not about all that other stuff. It is all about you and the camera.

Can you describe the dynamic on the set for us?

Some of the time it was difficult to get through. The Orsomic Chamber was grey and quite dismal. There was a lot of smoke; it was uncomfortable. We were just trying to make it work. I felt like it was hard. Ther were other times when things seemed to sail.

And there was always lunch. That was the time when we would sit down and talk to people doing what they want to do. It was a great way to bring the experience together.

Did you forge new friendships with actors while making this movie?

Not really new friendships. The people that I know, I will continue to know them. I am going to see them again for all the events surrounding the release of the film.

Elijah (Wood) and I have had some really long talks. Miranda (Otto) and I worked so closely and had a scene that was important to both of us.

The sets seem so beautiful and elaborate. What was it like in person?

The love of the books was an inspiration for the set builders and designers. People put so much into the set. My dagger was the most beautiful dagger I had ever seen in my life. Every thing was so beautiful, down to every detail. I was in another time, another world. It was more beautiful than in the movie. It is such a shame that it had to be destroyed. It is all gone now.

What was Peter Jackson like as a director?

He is a top notch director. To be honest with you, Fran Walsh directed me outright in some of these scenes. I would say one of Peter's many talents is he sure does know where to put the camera. He tries a lot of different things. He really pushes. He is a great audience. Every great director is. Peter pushes moments.

Everybody says he is a hobbit, but that is not the case. He has a wonderful love of evil characters. He is unique.

How does he compare to other directors you have worked with?

Well, for example, Peter Jackson and Milos Forman have nothing in common except they both make incredible films. Milos pushes ideas. Peter is much more focused on little things and little moments. Much more detailed.

But Fran Walsh is more about ideas. And she has him over her shoulder. He is watching, telling her this and that. So you can imagine the combination of the two of them.

What is Peter Jackson like off the set?

I wish I knew. He was so immersed in the movie that I have no idea what he is like as aperson. I am sure he is delightful. You can't really sit and chat with him, there were three sets all the time. He was always looking at monitors or on his way someplace else.

Can you tell us about working with Bernard Hill and Christopher Lee?

Christopher Lee, I am a huge fan of his. I saw all the vampire movies. The Wicker Man is one of my all time favorite movies. Christopher is a character and a half; he is truly amazing.

Bernard, I didn't know but he was delightful. He was a hot actor to work with.

There was some violence in Fellowship. Would you call Two Towers as violent or more or less violent as Fellowship?

It is more violent. It is about war and war is violent.

The Fellowhip kind of left us wanting more and now, the wait is almost over. Do you feel that Two Towers has a similar sentiment at the ending? NO. I think you are going to be very saturated. You are going to want to see the third moveie but much more than the first move. There are so many beautiful things in it, things that I've never seen before. It is just so beautiful, I can't stress it enough.

Have you seen the Two Towers yet? What did you think of it?

I thought it was a great ride. It was unlike the first because you are saturated with images. Some of the imagery is better. Gollum is unbelievable.

The readers of L'Ecran Fantastique are big fans of the Chucky movies. What is your opinion of those movies?

Oh, I just love them. They are supposed to be fun, rollercoaster horror films. The first one was scary. I liked the fourth the best. It had a sense of humor. The whole concept that there is a sort of love affair between the evil dolls, I've never seen that before. I love movies with unique and cool elements about them. And Chucky has got a lot of passion, he is enormous and full of passion.

What was it like for you to voice those roles?

It was great for me. I loved it and I have had so much fun with it.

Will there be another one?

Yes.

What is your opinion of horror movies done today?

I guess it depends on the horror film. I think they are fine. There is nothing wrong with horror films. Their existence has definitely had an impact on me. It is important to have scary demons in our world on film. We have them in the world. That is why we are afraid, it is nice to have a visual and to have a confrontation with it.

And fear is something we need to exist.

Is Vlad, the Vampire film still in your future? What character will you play?

Yes, I have finished that movie, already. I play a professor. It is an interesting role.

What movies would you like to play in your future. Is there a type of character you have not yet played that you aspire to play one day?

I just finished a pilot about Deadwood, a coal mining town. I play a doctor, he is a strange doctor. He is compassionate and a good soul. I had a lot of fun doing it. I hope it gets picked up.

Many people call you a character actor. Is this something you agree with and if so, was it by choice or by accident?

I would much rather be a fabulously wealthy actor. But since I am not, the character parts are more interesting, gives much more diversity. Villains are great. If it wasn't for the devil, we wouldn't be here, would we?